| POSTED:
7/31/01 |
| FROM:
David Mcgee
- [teamtrad@yahoo.com] |
| City
of Residence: Springfield, MO |
| USAGE:
1-3 times
per month |
| Petra rock
climbing gym will be hosting an Adopt-a-crag day at Sam's on september 22,
with the extreme help of the NFS and semi-sponsored by the Access
Fund. We will be re routing the dog walk down and probably building
steps in certain areas. The proposed trail has already been laid out with
the NFS. |
| With the amount
of people that will be showing up, we will probably try and split forces
and do the trail and help with the preliminary locations of the walk in
sites. |
| We should
all be very glad that the NFS has come to the climbers for help. And if
we want areas to remain open, we should all do our part to help, educate
and be educated on issues regarding access. |
| There are
a lot of people in this area who care about the wonderful resources of this
region of the country. over 50 people showed up when Terry and Rick came
to Petra just to talk about Sam's. Last year we built a trail at haw creek
and had 65 people show up. we already have 40 signed up for this year. I
think the goal is to have a well focused and united climbing community that
works together and plays together. |
| PLEASE COME
AND JOIN US and please keep us informed of any upcoming events that any
of you know about. |
|
|
| POSTED:
5/4/01 |
| FROM:
Terry Mitchell
- [terysmitch@cox-internet.com] |
| City
of Residence: Springdale, AR |
| USAGE:
1-3 times
per year |
| I support
the decision of the Forest Supervisor concerning improvements to the Sam's
Throne campground area. In modern forest recreation management, you can't
please everyone, but I think this plan is well thought-out and will meet
the needs of a wide range of public users while at the same time protecting
and rehabilitating the area. When the volume of public use in a undeveloped
area reaches the level it has at Sam's Throne, these types of controls simply
must be implemented. |
| About a year
ago I camped there on a Saturday night with a small group of Boy Scout climbers
about half-way down the south-end road. We were disturbed until the early
hours of the morning by loud music, voices, and partying from a large group
of people, who said they were climbers, camped at the large campsite farthest
south on that road. They were 200 yards from us, but we could hear them
clearly. There was a continuous stream of vehicles going in and out from
that party site all evening. One fellow who was apparently drunk had broken
the steering connecting linkage on his pickup truck, yet he slowly but surely,
accompanied by loud engine revving and much backing up, forced his vehicle
down that washed-out road even though his front wheels were no longer parallel
to each other and were pointing in different directions! It was incredible
to watch. The next day, that so-called climbing group did not get out to
the bluffs until well after noon, and they were moving very slowly. |
| Closing that
road and charging a user fee will slow or stop that sort of social abuse
in the camping area and make it again enjoyable to camp on Mt. Judea on
a weekend. |
|
|
| POSTED:
5/3/01 |
| FROM:
Lloyd & Meg
Oehlke [ molo@centurytel.net ] |
| City
of Residence: Mt. Judea, AR |
| USAGE:
Basically,
I live there |
| We would like
to alert you to a safety issue. A very large mountain lion has been sighted
at least three times in the Sams throne area by three different credible
people. The last sighting was by the road construction supervisor this past
week (last week in April). We personally saw a large mountain lion about
eight months ago. It leaped over the roadside fence carrying a baby goat.
Then it crossed in front of our vehicle, ran up a steep slope and disappeared
into the woods. Many times there are large groups of young people camping
and hiking at Sam's Throne. We worry about their safety. |
| We feel it
would be wise to alert campers to a potential danger. We live within walking
distance of beautiful Sam's Throne. This last sighting was between our house
and the campground. Thank You. |
| REPLY
FROM: michael1@samsplan.com |
Thank you
very much for the info! That could prove very usefull. I will notify
the rangers office and maybe they can post some warnings on trees in
the campground and at the entrance. I take it a mountain lion is a rare
thing to be seen in this part of Arkansas? Thanks again for the notification.
|
|
|
| POSTED:
1/25/01 |
| FROM:
Neal Braswell
[nmbraswell@statestreetkc.com] |
| City
of Residence: Kansas City, MO |
| USAGE:
1-3 times
per year |
| Here it goes
on my ideas on these situations: |
| Definently
not: |
| No thinning-destroys
beauty, natural seperation of campsites, and the wonderful setting of being
at sams throne. |
| No ATV trail.
As one person has already noted, there will be some to go over/thru the
barricade for personal use. |
| No helispot.
That is just a bit too much. I don't see the cost/benefit ratio being good
for this. If you do happen to do this i think a pay phone should be installed
somewhere to make a call for help-just kidding. |
| NO fees. Tax
dollars should pay for this and free help will defer those costs. |
| Oh yea: |
| Love the idea
of better parking. It can get packed very quickly as is. For organized camping
i like the idea of ones to drive into and ones that are for hiking to. Someone
else mentioned fliptop fire pits-wonderful idea. Who would'nt want latrine
facilities? |
| Not sure: |
| the water
source idea. it sounds great if you are thirsty and carrying in all your
own water for a weekend gets heavy quickly. i agree with the idea it will
invite more people into the area...cost/benefits i can not decide. |
| Please notify
me if you plan workdays (preferrably weekends). I might be able to pull
some other people together also for work days. Thank you. Neal Braswell
|
| REPLY
FROM: michael1@samsplan.com |
| You may want
to read the Environmental Assessment Report - it is an actual survey of
the conditions of the area, by people trained in forestry. They indicate
that the thinning is needed to maintain a certain level of health in the
trees, regardless of the aesthetic beauty assigned to it by human eyes.
I agree with you on maintaining a Fee-free area at Sams, but the reality
is that all this will cost some money, and the USFS is not funded very well
these days, so someone, namely the users of the area will most likely have
to help fray the costs. The issue of the USFS selling timber stands for
2 cents per tree is appalling, and must be addressed soon, but I dont think
its likely to affect this area. |
| The ATV trail
and helispot are probably not needed, but the ATV trail is likely to get
built, simply because the other improvements will make this a natural next
step. Whether the USFS builds that trail, or it gets built by local landowners,
who really cares?..... |
|
|
| POSTED:
1/04/01 |
| FROM:
Shannon Flood
[themagician@axs.net] |
| City
of Residence: Springfield, MO |
| USAGE:
1-3 times
per year |
| WOW! How so
much can change! I can remember the first time a went to the Throne. It
was cold, in fact there was just a dusting of snow on the road which made
driving up the steep switch-backs on 123 a real hassle. I had just started
climbing, rappeling actually, and had never seen real bluffs before. It
was almost surreal as we turned off the "highway" into what was then a clearing
only big enough to turn a truck around in. Fallen trees were scattered about,
yes, firewood was everywhere! And there among the Arkansas pines snaked
a trail, twisting through the trees. With some pretty tricky driving, straddling
the washed out ruts, we inched our Nissan 4x4 deeper into the forest. Then
there it was...a circle drive with a small fire ring in the middle. This
was THE campsite, the ONLY campsite! Oh there were a few other makeshift
fire rings , but nothing to speak of. I remember the first time I walked
the trail down to the bluffs. and the absolute speachless feeling I had
the first time I looked out across the valley. I slept there that night,
right up next to the edge. And I cried. I actually cried at the beauty that
nature presented that night looking up at the stars. |
| That memory
is only one of probably a hundred or more visits that I made to the Throne.
Each time, however, I saw that this wonderful place was changing. By the
last time I was there, there were at least 2 dozen camps, and firewood was
as hard to find as someone who really knew Clint Carriker, or even who he
was. |
| Although I
dont climb anymore, jobs, age, and fatherhood sidelined me for good, I still
have a lifetime of memories from the Throne. I only pray that the current
users of the area will appreciate it as much as I did, and will be able
to look back on their time there as fondly as I do. |
|
|
| POSTED:
11/22/00 |
| FROM:
Andrew Haddow |
| City
of Residence: Springfield, MO |
| USAGE:
1-3 times a month |
| First, I would
like to thank the Forest Service for having a meeting in Springfield, MO
on 6-1-00. Though I was unable to attend the meeting I feel that it shows
that the Park Service is trying to work with climbers in implementing their
proposals on dealing with issues affecting the Sam's Throne climbing area.
|
| I feel that
Alternative B is overall the best action plan. I feel that establishing
40 primitive campsites--20 "pack it in, pack it out" sites on the South
ridge (no vehicle access, no road), and 20 vehicle-accessible sites on the
North ridge, with road is overall a good idea. This will cut down on the
erosion that is taking place on the road to the South ridge due to heavy
vehicle use. The campsites will also prevent destruction of vegetation,
soil compaction, and erosion by making each campsite in a specific area
thus preventing one site from continually growing over time and impacting
vegetation and causing soil erosion. |
| Constructing
a vault toilet for each ridge would be a good idea by cutting down on human
waste in the area. Careful consideration must be given to construction and
location of these toilets to prevent groundwater contamination. |
| Constructing
drainage for the access road and barriers for controlled entry is also a
good idea. Drainage along the access road would help prevent soil erosion
and barriers for controlled entry would prevent misuse of the access road. |
| I also agree
with the idea of improving the lower road for emergency evacuation by ATV,
and barriers for controlled entry. |
| As for developing
a helispot between the Throne and the bluff line to facilitate medical evacuation
I have mixed feelings. Overall, I feel that a helispot would do wonders
to evacuating injured person to the hospital with minimal persons available
to provide medical care. My problem lies in the fact that first the appropriate
agency would need to be notified be it the "Fire Dept., Park Service, and
or Medical Services." I feel that it could take quite some time to do this.
Then after notification they must gain access to the area, reach the patient
or patients, provide medical care, and stabilize the patient or patients.
I image under the best conditions this would take 30 minutes to reach the
patient, and more time to stabilize the patient and provide medical treatment.
Even if the helicopter was enroute from initial notification it would still
need people there to land it. The patient would have to be loaded and flown
to the hospital. I feel that under the best conditions this would take 45
to 50 minutes from notification just get everyone and everything needed
to load the patient on the helicopter. The patient would arrive at the hopital
after the "golden hour." Though the helispot is a good idea the main principle
is being lost. Climbers, hikers, and campers must be trained in basic medical
care. Further they must be able to assist in landing a helicopter, and stabilizing
the patient or patients before EMT's or Paramedic's arrive. Therefore, before
building a helispot frequenters of the area must be trained in basic medical
care, and how to safely land a helicopter since there will probably be few
personnel who arrive with the Fire Dept. to help land it. These issues must
first be addressed in order to provide the best medical care for those injured
in the area and provide SAFE evacuation to medical facilities. |
| As for improving
the two social trails, I feel that this is a good idea if it cuts down on
erosion, soil compaction, and destruction of vegetation. |
| I also feel
that parking lots would prevent soil erosion and destruction of vegetation
by keeping parking in specific area |
| Restricting
camping to designated areas is of the up most importance if further soil
erosion, soil compaction, and destruction of vegetation are to be prevented. |
| Thinning the
pine stand on the southern portion of the ridge top and conducting prescribed
burns on the top of the ridge prior and after the development of the campsites
is a good idea as long as it is done correctly. Fire is a natural cycle
in the forest environment and it leads to a healthy forest by opening up
the under-story and allowing trees to be spread out, providing for better
growing conditions. Prescribed burning also reduces the ground fuels. I
feel that more native tree species need to be planted, reducing the number
of pine trees making the area more natural. Prescribed burning is beneficial
to a forest ecosystem if it is done correctly, and though a forest with
closely growing trees may look appealing to the climber, hiker, and camper
it is ultimately not healthy for the forest ecosystem which adapted with
the fire cycle in prehistory. |
| I feel that
their should be NO fees for camping in the area, and that climbers, hikers,
and campers that use the Sam's Throne area would be more then willing to
help with the Park Service in implementing whichever proposal was put into
action, from trail building to helping restrict camping to designated areas. |
| I would like
to thank the person or persons responsible for building this site to promote
input from climbers, hikers, and campers for the Park Service's proposals
to manage the Sam's Throne area. |
| Again, I would
like to thank the Park Service for working with the climbers, hikers, and
campers who use this area for outdoor recreation, and allowing us to give
our views and ideas for the best possible management of the Sam's Throne
area. |
Thank you
for your time,
Andrew Haddow |
| REPLY
FROM: michael1@samsplan.com |
Thanks
for the submission, keep in mind the helicopter is not a perfect solution,
just a way to make everything happen sooner than it would without one.
Long-term recovery for the patient could be dependent on this early
intervention ability. I think the real hitch would be the first contact
- who and how will make the initial call for help? If that requires
ascending back up the main bluff, driving to a pay phone or someone's
house along the way, that will render the helispot ineffective. Good
thoughts, thanks again for coming.
|
| REPLY
FROM ANDREW: |
| Also I agree
with you comments on the helispot, but if a patient suffering trauma is
not in a hospital within "the golden hour" receiving treatment statistically
their chances for recovery are slim to none. I highly doubt that even with
a helispot a patient would make it to the hospital in an hour. I still agree
with building the helispot, but I feel the issues of how to contact the
EMS, and providing basic medical care should the first priority. |
Thank you
again for your time.
Andrew Haddow |
| P.S. A helispot
is a great luxury if we could get one down there, it sure beats landing
a helicopter on a road! |
|
|
| POSTED:
11/20/00 |
| FROM:
William Anderson [mcree@eritter.net ] |
| USAGE:
Basically, I live there |
| The Helipad
between the throne and the main bluff line. Some comments: |
1. How
many heli pads do you need? Is 2 overkill. I know there are accidents
out there but 2 helipads!!!! What about limiting the area to just one,
and this one being out of the viewshed when you are looking out over
the valley.
|
2. If it
has to be out there somewhere, Is it absolutly necessary for it to be
placed in such a spot that when you are overlooking the valley, you
can look down and see this man made intrusion.
|
3. In constructing
this, and improving the road, will any boulders be impacted? The boulders
below the bluffline and all around the area are a priceless resource
for climbers. Destroying one would be like defacing a native american
burial site.
|
|
|
| POSTED:
11/20/00
|
| FROM:
Don Davis
[ddavis@vccnet.com] |
| City
of Residence: Little Rock, AR |
| USAGE:
4-10 times
per year |
| To whom it
may concern: |
| Thank you
for the opportunity to contribute to the discussion of the action plan for
Sam's Throne. Climbing constitutes the major use of the Sam's Throne area,
and as a climber I appreciate the Forest Service's special consideration
of the climbing community's input. I have listed below my reactions to each
of the proposed actions. |
1. Road
Improvements: I support improvements of the access road to reduce erosion
and the creation of a day use parking area to prevent further spread
of user created roads.
|
2. Camp
site improvements: I support the creation of primitive walk-in camping
sites. I personally would rather all the sites at Sam's be walk-in.
I have chosen not to camp at Sam's Throne in the last year because of
the loud party atmosphere in the camp area. Limiting vehicle access
would deter this and contribute to the overall natural experience for
campers/climbers.
|
3. Helipad
and Trail Improvements: Is this necessary? I don't like the idea of
widening the base trail to provide easier access. This is the wrong
direction for improvements - the trail use does not need to be increased.
Also I feel helipad could contribute to irresponsible use. Again is
it necessary?
|
4. Thinning:
I don't support thinning along the ridge. The natural condition and
growth of the woods, in my opinion, is preferable to creating a more
open "park like" atmosphere.
|
5. Vault
Toilets: I agree that there is a need for proper sanitation at Sam's
due to the increasing use of the area and think the toilets are a good
idea.
|
6. Day
use fees: I am against day use fees for Sam's Throne. Users should continue
to have access to this recreation area without adding use fee's. Our
tax dollars should pay for the improvements. Also I feel users can and
should be responsible for maintaining the area in the best possible
condition. Forcing use fees might cause some users to think that they
are paying for maintiance, trash pick-up etc. and lessen their felt
responsiblity to employ best posible use ethics and take pride in maintaining
this resource.
|
| Thanks again
for your consideration, and please keep the climbing community informed
as to the schedule for imporvements. I would like to help with the work,
and I know there are many others who would do the same. |
| Don Davis |
|
|
| POSTED:
11/17/00 |
| FROM:
Grover Shipman |
| To
whom it may concern: |
| Thankyou for
providing a forum for discussion about the proposed usage and development
for the Sam's Throne area. My name is Grover Shipman, I am a medical student
in Little Rock. I am an active member of the Access Fund, a national climber's
advocacy group that promotes responsible and legal use of public and private
lands. I have participated in trail building activities with the Access
Fund at Sam's Throne, and I have organized a clean-up at a local crag. I've
read the proposals for development at Sam's and here's my two cents worth: |
| For the five
years that I have been going to Sam's Throne I have seen the use of the
area more than double. Erosion and the cancer-like creeping of the campsites
over the southern ridge has been a source of concern for all my friends
and I. On numerous occasions we found ourselves scattering new fire-rings
and moving debris to block further incursion by car-campers. Although I
love car-camping at Sam's, it is obvious that the best way to curb the problem
is indeed to restrict the south ridge to walk-in camping. However, I am
unsure that trading one car-camping area for a new one (on the north ridge)
is the answer. |
| In a nutshell
here's what I would be 100% behind: |
1.) I am
willing to sacrifice the convenience of car-camping for a better and
more natural experience at Sam's Throne (ie walk-in camping).
|
2.) I would
like to see metal fliptop fire pits at the campsites, because that is
the only way that people will understand the rule: "No new fire-rings."
|
3.) There
is a definite need for good sanitation at Sam's. A north and south ridge
latrene would be ideal.
|
4.) Regardless
of how "park like" thinning may make an area seem, it is unnatural and
detracts from my wilderness experience. Trees will provide natural visual
and sound bariers between campsites. Therefore, it is essential that
whatever campsites are created, the trees should be used as divisions
between them and NOT thinned. I don't want to wait 60 years to see Sam's
beautiful again.
|
5.) I am
110% AGAINST USER FEES! I pay taxes for the use of the NFS facilities.
If the NFS wants to charge me for use, let them start trying to turn
a profit from International Paper or Georgia Pacific instead of practically
giving the trees away. I'll start paying when they stop cutting.
|
6.) I am
120% FOR CLIMBER LED VOLUNTEER LABOR. We work for FREE!!! We can and
will organize to help you build the sites in exchange for a voice in
how and where they are built. You can count on me to recruit at least
10 other climbers if you need it.
|
Thanks again.
Sincerely, |
| Grover Shipman |
| REPLY
FROM: michael1@samsplan.com |
A very
informed climber. Some of the best comments so far. I dont like the
idea of making the south ridge a car camping area either, makes no sense.
thanks again. one more thing - let's get those 10 climbers to come to
this site and submit their thoughts.
|
|
|
| POSTED:
11/16/00 |
| FROM:
dtw868s [dtw868s@smsu.edu] |
| The most immediate
concerns right now at the throne is the access road. i think that it is
an excellent idea to establish a parking area, and then pack in to the campsites.
then we can eliminate the access road that is becoming badly eroded and
damaging the plants. Most climbers use the south end to camp, so it would
be better to establish/repair those sites first. I am against paid campsites,
and i think that the climbing community in general would be willing to help
with all of the labor. as for the emergency services, an ATV trail is a
bad idea. it will turn the base of the cliffline into a freeway, because
gates will not keep out all of the citizens that own ATV's. the trail will
become badly eroded. I am kind of on the fence about the helipads. it may
be an incentive for irresponsible climbers to push their luck---free soloers
in a secluded area, for example. |
| One last thing.
all people need to bring their own wood in to burn for fires. Last time
i was down there, someone had a chainsaw cutting down "dead" trees. after
confronting this person about how they should respect the ethic and leave
all trees standing, whether dead or alive, he just told me that if i wanted
any firewood he would be more than happy to cut down some trees for me. |
|
| REPLY
FROM: michael1@samsplan.com |
Thanks
for coming to the site and participating!
|
I have
to say I agree with your comments, especially the one concerning the
ATV trail. I also dont think the helipad is going to happen simply because
of its expense - but you're correct - it will encourage irresponsible
actions/risks - a safety net always does. Its just human nature. I also
second the volunteering spirit in helping with the labor in repairing
the area. Good thoughts. thanks again.
|
|
|
| POSTED:
11/16/00 |
|
FROM:
Scott Belcher [ belcherscottm@uams.edu ]
|
| USAGE:
1-3 times per month |
| In general,
the proposals seem reasonable and fairly well thought out. However, I am
not convinced that the benefits from the proposed thinning (proposal A)
outweigh the impact, and therefore tend to favor the no-thinning proposal
(proposal B). This is in part because in the proposed benefits of the thinning,
the goal is creating a "park-like" appearance. Personally, a more wilderness-like
experience is a large part of the Sams experience, and I think losing the
illusion of seclusion (yes, in spite of the impression portrayed in the
impact description you can find some seclusion if you use a campsite that
is not at the end of the access road) would be a negative. |
| Concerning
the campsites, I may have missed it, but I did not see a proposal for a
potable water source. A centrally located hand pump water source would be
a great addition to the proposal. |
| I was also
wondering if there has been an assessment of the need of the helispot. I
could not find a description of a need assessment. While I understand it
may be difficult to be very accurate, are there records concerning the numbers
of serious injuries that have occurred that would require emergency evacuation?
I know it is great to have "just in case", but does the risk/benefit assessment
really indicate the need? |
| Finally, there
is no mention concerning the impact at the base of the bluff. The impact
at the more popular routes (e.g. white trash wall area, between Poohs corner
and the dogwalk) is at least as great as at the campsites. There really
needs to be some planning to limit this impact before it becomes such a
problem that future access to some climbs is restricted. |
| REPLY
FROM: michael1@samsplan.com |
Thanks
for submitting your comments Scott. I think most climbers would agree
with your comment about the wilderness vs. park-like experience, but keep
in mind -- a hand water pump would take us more in the direction of a
park-like setting. Essentially making it easier for "campers"
to stay there, as opposed to "climbers".
|
On
the helispot - I think most climbers will again agree with you. Check
the thought in the posting above.
|
|
|
